Posts by Faithful Witness

85

My Elderette is returning today to CONDUCT another conversation...

by Faithful Witness in

she has had 42 years of training and indoctrination.

i'm feeling sort of nervous, but also looking forward to it.

this will be our second scheduled session together, and we never did agree on a topic.. i'm assuming she will come with an agenda and another prepared presentation.

Faithful Witness

The KH that we attended is located in a rural area, a village where residents often don't even lock their doors. It was a surprise to see the video monitors, but I guess I just accepted it. I am often someone who gives people (undeserved) benefit of the doubt. After seeing the monitors, I did look and see the cameras in the hall and parking lot.

85

My Elderette is returning today to CONDUCT another conversation...

by Faithful Witness in

she has had 42 years of training and indoctrination.

i'm feeling sort of nervous, but also looking forward to it.

this will be our second scheduled session together, and we never did agree on a topic.. i'm assuming she will come with an agenda and another prepared presentation.

Faithful Witness

Apognophos: There is a desk at the rear of the KH that we attended. A man sits at that desk throughout the entire meeting. It took me a long time to really notice it, as I was always so worried about keeping my babies still and quiet. I had to leave and spend many meetings in the mother's room, nursing and soothing my baby. One day, as I was returning to my seat, I actually looked over at this desk in the corner.

There were between 4-6 tv screens, with black and white video images. I didn't really examine it, but I could see the parking lot and the hallway clearly. It has been a long time since I've been there now, but the images may have been switching views on each screen.

Regarding the bathroom monitoring:

Stress causes some digestive issues for my husband at times. There was one particular time, when I guess he was feeling pretty sick. He went to the restroom, and while he was in there, the elder who was also our BS conductor, came into the men's room and called his name. He said something to the effect of, "Chuck, you're missing the talk! You've been in here a long time." (Not a question about his welfare, but an admonition that he was taking too long on the toilet... my husband is a military veteran, former Army sargeant, and he doesn't take bullying-type behavior).

Mind you, this elder was the same 77 year old man, who waited until he was alone with my husband during one of our BS sessions (I was putting kids to bed). He attempted to "get tough" with my husband... "Are you going to start making progress here, or are you going to let your family be sentenced to destruction at Armageddon?"

Also the same man who threw a little tantrum, when we dared to show him a video of some former JW's, speaking on a panel for a Christian talk show. The man who always had ALL the answers, freaked out on us when we asked him to defend his beliefs. "They're apostates! They're fornicators! They're idolators! Apostates!" His reaction to our sincere question, was enough to cause our "progress" to come to a screeching halt. Game over, when we finally figured out that he had been lying to us the whole time. He flat-out denied that anyone ever believed in the 1975 predictions that the apostates are lying about today.

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Thank you all again for reading my posts about these experiences, and I do think that this week will most likely be my last session with these ladies. Unless they can be more respectful to me, I don't see why I should continue to study with them. I have no intention of ever becoming a JW, and I know that cultBgone is correct. They are not doing me any good, but really just wasting my time, as I spin my wheels.

I do have compassion for them, and do care about their welfare, but their claims that JW's are teaching the truth, are falling flat. Miss K starts her presentation by telling me that the bible is true, then tells me things that (that are "true,) but that aren't in the bible, but tells me that they are not in the bible because there are errors or omissions in the bible, so the JW's had to insert the name of Jehovah 237 times in the New Testament?

The lies and insults can be saved for someone else. I don't know what I am going to say yet, but I realize that I do have to get myself out of this situation, after reading my own description of what is happening here. When she confirms our appointment, I am going to make sure and tell her that I need to keep it to less than 90 minutes this time. I need to grow a backbone, between now and next Friday. I really am not sure why I agreed to let Miss K into my home, but now that I see how it is going to go, I have changed my mind.

JW's are worthy of outreach, and people who are wishing they could leave, or have their doubts about the organization they serve, should have the freedom to leave without punishment. I have shown these ladies, in the best and only way I am capable of at this time, that they are not teaching the truth at all. They are following an organization, agreeing to believe whatever they are told, whether it is truth or not.

I think I just need to be firm and honest with them. My time and my own sanity have more value than this. I almost wish that I didn't have to wait a week for her to come back, so I can get this over with. I'm guessing that the length of time between BS sessions, is all part of the process. They don't want to come back while you are still "hot." They wait until you cool off and allow it all to start over again. The day AFTER the BS session, is the most full of awareness of what just happened, at least for me.

8

Grandma called the other day, and chose to tell my kids about the tornadoes

by Faithful Witness in

i know this might be overreacting, and i have not said a peep about it to my kids or anyone else... .

last week, my kids wanted to call my mom during the day.

on her last visit, they had talked about calling her on her day off at home.

Faithful Witness

I know this might be overreacting, and I have not said a peep about it to my kids or anyone else...

Last week, my kids wanted to call my mom during the day. On her last visit, they had talked about calling her on her day off at home. She was in the shower, so they got the answering machine. I sent her a text, asking her to call if she had time.

They each talked to her for about 5 minutes, and I was busy doing laundry. Afterward, my daughter said, "You know what? Grandma told me there were FIFTY tornadoes in Tennessee yesterday!" She had apparently also asked about the weather here, "Is it raining there?" I know that in Michigan, we all love talking about the weather, so maybe it was just an interesting and "safe" topic for her to express.

I didn't comment on this, but just thought to myself that she was planting some "end time" seeds in their young minds. My kids are 6 and 7. I'm not going to react, but will be noticing if she says anything else that sounds fishy. My daughter used to be very scared of thunderstorms and wind... why would she bring this up? Last summer, my daughter asked me daily if there was going to be a tornado. (They might have been too young to watch The Wizard of Oz, after all... haha)

9

Helpful Scriptural References - importance of Trust in God not Man

by objectivetruth in

psalms 118:8 - it is better to take refuge in jehovah than to trust in humans.. the scriptures are clear that jesus is the truth - the way - the life : john 4:6 - jesus said to him: i am the way and the truth and the life.

no one comes to the father except through me.

1 timothy 2:4 - whose will is that all sorts of people should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth.

Faithful Witness

Thank you for compiling and sharing this! I will be reviewing it.

7

For those of us who still attend

by jonahstourguide in

i wanted to repost this, i inadvertently posted it in members but all need to see it i think.. .

bible highlights this week.

exodus 25:2.

Faithful Witness

When is this letter being read? Midweek this week?

10

Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life..." What is the JW perspective on this passage?

by Faithful Witness in

how important is the phrase, "i am" to jw's, when it is spoken by jesus about himself?

my elderette wants to examine this scripture (john 14:6) together next week.

i'm wondering what rabbit she is going to pull out of her hat.

Faithful Witness

How important is the phrase, "I am" to JW's, when it is spoken by Jesus about himself?

My elderette wants to examine this scripture (John 14:6) together next week. I'm wondering what rabbit she is going to pull out of her hat.

Is she somehow going to use this statement to build another argument that Jesus "really" meant that we had to get to him through some other channel?

It seems that she likes to build arguments on "common sense" a lot. I'm wondering where she is going to go with this verse...

2

The Bible Teach book discussion on YouTube

by Listener in

over time a number of posters have asked for advice when studying what does the bible really teach?

book with jws.

i came across a set of youtube video's of a guy discussing this book chapter by chapter with the jws.

Faithful Witness

Thank you for this link. I will view it and prepare for my next bible study session, in case my elderette tries again to get me to study from this uninspired book.

85

My Elderette is returning today to CONDUCT another conversation...

by Faithful Witness in

she has had 42 years of training and indoctrination.

i'm feeling sort of nervous, but also looking forward to it.

this will be our second scheduled session together, and we never did agree on a topic.. i'm assuming she will come with an agenda and another prepared presentation.

Faithful Witness

Fast Jehu: Thank you for the quotes and references! I will definitely bring this up again. When she makes statements I'm not familiar with, I ask her, "Where is that in the bible?" There were a couple of times yesterday, when we waited for several minutes while she tried to find her proof verses.

I am not a bible scholar. I am really just beginning to actually READ the bible with open eyes, and I know that I have a lot to learn. Asking her to show me these things in the bible, and writing down the verses she is referencing, is helping me to examine the scriptures for myself.

That is one thing I WILL give the JW's credit for. They are the ones who encouraged me to study the bible in the first place, for the first time with my adult mind. Where we parted, was when I started questioning their reasoning and their perspective. Their claims of exclusive rights to the truth, were definitely worth examination, especially if one is considering committing their life to an organization like that. We attended the meetings long enough to realize that there was something "not quite right," and there was too much judgment and control happening within the congregation.

** What's up with the security cameras throughout the KH??... At first, it looked like they were protecting the people, but then you realize they are watching you. I had a baby I was nursing, and my husband was followed into the bathroom more than once. He was once scolded for taking too long on the toilet... HELLO!! You do NOT want the alternative!! He still talks about that experience to this day. CREEPY!!

----- One last thing I just remembered from Miss K:

"So, we believe that the Jehovah's Witnesses are the ones teaching the TRUTH today. It sounds like you really aren't there yet," she said, as she got up to go.

I said, "No, I am not."

Miss W piped in with, "That's because you are still in kindergarten. It will take you awhile to get to 1st grade, then 2nd grade..."

(I kept in mind that they were recruited during the fever of 1975 and the end of the world, as Miss W continued). "Some people take longer to come to the truth. When my husband and I started studying, it only took us 3 months, and we were ready to be baptized! But they stopped us and said, 'Wait a minute... you don't KNOW quite enough yet...' so we studied for 3 more months, and THEN we got baptized!!" She was so proud of this quick progress, I could tell.

I asked her, "Why did they say that? What about that story of the guy they met on the side of the road, who asked if he could be baptized right now? Didn't they baptize him when he requested it? Why do JW's have these extra requirements, in order to be baptized? I don't understand that. Where is that in the bible?"

Miss W said, "I asked the same thing..." and they trailed off, because they were already WAY over the time we agreed to end. I just said, "You can tell, I have a lot of questions..."

I am not going to get offended by being called a kindergartener, from a woman who admits to being willing to shut off her own mind and follow the instructions of a slave. It is interesting to me, that they really seem to believe that they are studying the bible. They relish the fact that they can find verses here and there to prove their points about things, but they don't have an answer when asked what the bible truth is?

They are so fixated on these little details and side issues, that they are missing the big picture. Next week, I will find a way to say something about how much I learn from MY kindergartener, every day. My son is a brilliant example to follow. Didn't Jesus tell us to come to him like children?

85

My Elderette is returning today to CONDUCT another conversation...

by Faithful Witness in

she has had 42 years of training and indoctrination.

i'm feeling sort of nervous, but also looking forward to it.

this will be our second scheduled session together, and we never did agree on a topic.. i'm assuming she will come with an agenda and another prepared presentation.

Faithful Witness

Xanthippe: She has not mentioned the new system yet. She did talk use the phrase, "end of this system," instead of the end of the world. I have not heard any mention of that concept in so long... that is a good question. Even my parents haven't said anything. My mom once made the comment to me that the Witnesses are the only ones who teach about living forever on the paradise earth.

jookbeard: That is the key issue that I wanted to discuss with her. If I'm understanding things correctly, I would have to agree that the WTS is the channel for God on earth today. She couldn't prove that last time, so she has attempted to "set that aside" for now. I think she is trying to prove they are the only ones preaching the truth today, by showing me that what they claim is taught in the bible.

Enlightenment123: I did not know that history of the use and removal of YHWH. The thing that really strikes me, is how complicated everything has to be. There are numerous scriptures that talk about the simplicity of the message of Christ. What is the deal with all the distraction techniques, and efforts to stand out and be different? It's so clear that they want people confused, and the bible also tells us who is the master of confusion.

Thanks for that link. She was the one who said she wanted to agree that we would only work with "inspired" writings, and when I asked her if we could talk about a confusing WT article, she admitted that it wasn't going to be what the bible says. "You won't be learning what the bible says!" I got out my book last night, to remind myself. I feel pretty silly now, to realize that I was actually believing the things in that book.

The video on jw.org was strange. I'm not going to agree to another impromptu viewing of a video with them. There was definitely some kind of sublminal imagery in there, and it left me with an uneasy feeling.

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Other things that were memorable to me:

She did not pray at any time.

She asked me what version of the bible I was reading from. I told her KjV. "Is that ok?" She said, "Oh yes, that is fine. You can use ANY version of the bible that you want."

I said, "Any version. really?" There are some pretty perverted versions out there today (The Message is one that came to mind).

She said something like "they are all God's word." and added, "One lady that I have studied with uses the NIV. And did you know that our new version of the NWT has IDENTICAL footnotes to the NIV!" I gasped quietly at that, "Really? Who wrote those footnotes?"

"It doesn't matter, all bibles are the truth," or something very close to that, was her reply. I did not agree, so I said, "I don't know a lot about it, but I have heard some nefarious things about the authors of the NIV."

She didn't really seem to care about that question, which I found odd. If all bibles are accurate, then why do they need their own translation? I will bring that up again.

I did have my copy of the grey NWT sitting there next to me, but read from the KJV. We also used the JW app, which is very handy for comparing the translations.

I asked her about the Byington bible. I have never heard of that one. "Is that approved?" She said it was just another translation, and that all translations are approved.

I also plan to address the changes that were made to the new NWT. Last time, Miss W had made the claim that NOTHING had been changed, except the language. "They made it more modern and easy to read, NO meanings or teachings were changed!" She was very defensive about it, and it clearly struck a nerve. We were talking about something else at the time (Who is the FDS), so I left it alone. The removal of the brackets is a very significant change, in my opinion.

When My mother came and showed off her new bible to me the first time, we were admiring it together. She and I accidentally stumbled upon a change together, where they had changed the tense in a passage. To this I said, "That really looks like a change, Mom! I wonder what else has been changed..."

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I know that the seeds I have planted with my mom, or at least some of them, are still percolating in my mom's mind. Last time she was here, she asked me if I had asked Miss K about "the secret book." Haha... I thought it was funny she brought this up. I chuckled and said, "No. We have agreed to only talk about what is actually in the bible." I asked her if she had asked anyone about that, and she said she hadn't.

Last summer, when I had discovered that they were about to change the truth, I freaked out a little bit. I thought maybe this would wake up my parents, as they have never had to face a change yet. I sent them an email, about how I was willing to risk losing communication with them, in hopes of warning them that there are alarms going off in their publications. They are going to be told to ignore them. I quoted the article that had "the instructions that don't make sense from a human standpoint." I told them about the book called, Shepherding the Flock of God. I sent a picture of the cover, and challenged my dad to ask an elder why they were entitled to have information and instructions he was not allowed to read.

Neither of them replied to the email, and they have never mentioned it until this comment.

I did ask my mom a few months ago, about the "instructions," and what kind of things people were saying about it, and whether they were talking about "being ready to obey." She just said, "We are still waiting to see what they are." It was then that I asked her, "Do you really believe that the governing body speaks for God?" She didn't pause before saying, "Yes." That response was very jarring, and it stopped me dead in my tracks. We were actually out in a noisy restaurant at the time, and my kids were there, listening attentively. I started talking to my daughter instead. To this day, remembering that moment has a physcial effect on me.

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Back to the Miss K show.

After we watched that video, "Why should you study the bible?" (with JW's, of course), Miss K asked me, "What stood out to you in that video?"

I drew a blank, as I wasn't sure what she was fishing for. I said, "Well, I pretty much agreed, until they said that people believe that God is in control of the earth today. I don't believe that." She is not a very good listener. She thought I was saying that the video said God was in control of the earth, even though I was just trying to point out that I don't believe "what they think I believe." So we looked up a couple of verses, about how Satan is controlling the earth. Anyway...

She brought up an interesting example, with the song, "He's got the whole world in His hands." I told her I'd never thought of that song that way before...

Since we agreed that the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one, that was when she started trying to reintroduce the bible teach book to me.

She said, "JW's are getting the truth from the bible. But I think you know, we DO use other tools. You know we use the Watchtower magazine and other books from the Watchtower."

I think it was at this point that I said, "JW's are very attached to that phrase, 'The Truth.' I noticed you say it a lot, and you hold it very..." and I hugged myself. They acknowledged this and said something like "dear" or "important." I again said, "Jesus is the truth! I'm concerned that you fixate so much on the name of Jehovah, and make things so complicated. Jesus is the truth. Why do you think you have to go through the Watchtower to get to the truth?"

At some point, and it might have been now, Miss W said, "We all have free will. Some people have a hard time accepting instructions from someone else, and they don't like to be told what to do." I said, "It's not just being told what to do, but being told what to believe... even when they change their mind."

Here is where I will give Miss K some credit. Even though she stuck to her mission and made sure she got me through her whole list of cherry-picked verses on her agenda, she did pick up on my pleas that she acknowledge Jesus as the way to the Father, and that He never actually told anyone to go to an organization for salvation.

Next week, she wants to talk about John 14:6, where Christ says, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one gets to the Father, but by me."

Maybe someone here can tell me how the JW's have warped this idea, and help me be prepared for her next show. Her premise seems to be that JW's are the ones teaching the truth today, so "If what I am telling you is in the bible, it must be the truth."

She did show me the verse, where it says God is the head of Christ, and Christ is head of the church. This was one of her supporting verses, to show me that God has always used specific people or an organization to communicate with us.

I'm wondering why the JW's and Mormons both seem to believe that the bible must have been incomplete... What is the purpose of all these extra texts and publications they keep writing? I don't see, "to be continued until the end of this system of things..." written at the end.

85

My Elderette is returning today to CONDUCT another conversation...

by Faithful Witness in

she has had 42 years of training and indoctrination.

i'm feeling sort of nervous, but also looking forward to it.

this will be our second scheduled session together, and we never did agree on a topic.. i'm assuming she will come with an agenda and another prepared presentation.

Faithful Witness

Pams girl: I might not have said cross. She did correct me last time, and said, "Or torture stake..." I may have avoided the term this time, to stay on topic.

Blondie: Thank you for the illustration and hints for next time! I really struggle with finishing my thought, before she just runs rough-shod over me with her own agenda. I am way too polite, and there were more than a couple of times, when I should have stopped her in the middle. I kept waiting for her to get to the point... but I'm being reminded that they WILL just go on forever, if you don't stop them. It was sometimes like she was talking herself into her point of view...!!

Terry: It is funny you should say that, as Miss W (her partner) brought up the fact that they had learned about the truth from a different book! She said they called it "The Blue Bomb!" She said it strongly addressed the trinity doctrine. That could be what she remembers most, because she used to attend both Methodist and Catholic Churches... not sure which one came first. She now will not enter a church building for any reason, "because I know what false teachings are going on in there!" --- Miss K, on the other hand, says that she goes into church buildings for funerals, weddings, and even has gone to Weight Watchers at a church before... that is where "your conscience" comes in. She used this an example of JW's enjoying "free will."

I had made the comment that "With the JW's, it is really ALL or nothing." Miss K said, "What do you mean?"

I said, "If you want to become one of Jehovah's Witnesses, you have to agree with all their teachings and beliefs, even when they change their mind. Then you say that you have 'free will.' From an outsider's perspective, it really appears that you have 'FREE WILL, as long as you agree with US.' "

She didn't really have a comment about that, but then went on and told how they didn't control every little aspect of your life. "For example, they don't tell you what specific movies, TV shows or entertainment you can watch..." Then Miss W piped in with, "Of course, you want to PLEASE JEHOVAH."

Ugh... to be continued. Thanks for the encouragement.

I found it ironic, when we read about Paul instructing the Bereans to examine the teachings of their leaders... then she proceeded to try and "teach" me something that wasn't actually documented in the bible. (Jesus using God's personal name).